Genealogy Wise
London Genealogy
Help with your Family History in London, including the Middlesex, Kent, Essex and Surrey borders
Need help understanding a location - 1861 census.
Hello!
I was hoping someone could help me better understand the location in which I found my gg-grandfather's family (found thanks to Caroline Bradford - Charles W. Metcalfe, Charlotte, Charles H. and George T.) on the 1861 census. I've attached a jpeg image of the sheet.
Although it seems clear that the Parish is St. Bride, City of London, Municipal Ward of Farringdon Without, I'm not sure how those all relate to each other. I have five questions:
1. According to Ancestry, the county was Middlesex. But according to www.1861-census.co.uk, the county was London. Wikipedia (of which I am often skeptical) said that London was in Middlesex until 1889, when London became a county itself, which would put the London of 1861 in Middlesex. What’s correct??
2. Can anyone make out the street name on the sheet? I think it is Harp Alley, but I'm really not sure.
3. I'm confused about how to express the location in my records. Of course, I’m used to the method of listing locations from smaller division to larger, so with U.S. locations it’s [city or town], [county], [state], [country]. I’m just not sure how that translates. Would it be Farringdon Without, London, Middlesex, England? Or would it be St. Bride, London, Middlesex, England? Or something completely different?
4. Can anyone recommend any reliable resources (online or otherwise) for when I have these questions in the future? I’m ordering civil birth and marriage records for this family, so I see further confusion ahead.
5. This has nothing to do with the location: I'm trying to read the occupations for Charles and Charlotte Metcalfe & I can't make out the 3rd word of his and the 2nd & 3rd of hers. His is Book Binder [ ] and hers looks like Infant [ maybe "School"? ] [ ]. Also, just to double check, I read Charles W. and George T.'s birthplace as Middlesex St. Marlylebone, Charlotte's as Nottingham [ ], Charles H.'s as Surrey Brixton.
Whew! That's a long one! But I appreciate any help you can provide.
-Kathleen
I was hoping someone could help me better understand the location in which I found my gg-grandfather's family (found thanks to Caroline Bradford - Charles W. Metcalfe, Charlotte, Charles H. and George T.) on the 1861 census. I've attached a jpeg image of the sheet.
Although it seems clear that the Parish is St. Bride, City of London, Municipal Ward of Farringdon Without, I'm not sure how those all relate to each other. I have five questions:
1. According to Ancestry, the county was Middlesex. But according to www.1861-census.co.uk, the county was London. Wikipedia (of which I am often skeptical) said that London was in Middlesex until 1889, when London became a county itself, which would put the London of 1861 in Middlesex. What’s correct??
2. Can anyone make out the street name on the sheet? I think it is Harp Alley, but I'm really not sure.
3. I'm confused about how to express the location in my records. Of course, I’m used to the method of listing locations from smaller division to larger, so with U.S. locations it’s [city or town], [county], [state], [country]. I’m just not sure how that translates. Would it be Farringdon Without, London, Middlesex, England? Or would it be St. Bride, London, Middlesex, England? Or something completely different?
4. Can anyone recommend any reliable resources (online or otherwise) for when I have these questions in the future? I’m ordering civil birth and marriage records for this family, so I see further confusion ahead.
5. This has nothing to do with the location: I'm trying to read the occupations for Charles and Charlotte Metcalfe & I can't make out the 3rd word of his and the 2nd & 3rd of hers. His is Book Binder [ ] and hers looks like Infant [ maybe "School"? ] [ ]. Also, just to double check, I read Charles W. and George T.'s birthplace as Middlesex St. Marlylebone, Charlotte's as Nottingham [ ], Charles H.'s as Surrey Brixton.
Whew! That's a long one! But I appreciate any help you can provide.
-Kathleen
Carolyn Ramsbottom
I cannot make out the 3rd word in Charles' occupation
Charlotte's occupation is infant school mistress and her place of birth Nottinghamshire N.K. (i.e not known, meaning she didn't know where in Nottinghamshire she was born) The other birth places you have read correctly, also the address 5 Harp Alley. The full address is 5 Harp Alley, St Brides, London, England.
Until 1899 when county councils were established in England, London strictly referred to the City of London, a 1 square mile area of what is now central London and which incuded the parish of St Bride's. The rest was Middlesex (north of the River Thames) or Surrey (south of the Thames). There is much confusion in census returns as how to record the city of London and many people will say London, Middlesex.
Hope this helps
Carolyn
Aug 25, 2009
Victoria Turner
What we know today in general as London was prior to 1899 in 3 different counties. Middlesex, Surrey, and Kent. Some parts of Essex were also in what is now Outer London.
Sometimes, one street belonged in one admin county/division, the next one to it in another. As in other parts of England, civil admin areas and parishes did not necessarily correspond completely with eccliastical parish areas. ie Deptford and Greenwich So, yes, very confusing particularly when you are trying to find who holds the records for a particular place.
In the 20th century further amalgamations and separations took place which further confuses things. I would record as St. Bride, Middlesex, London, England which is how I record my London ancestors.
When it comes to ordering Civil certificates the only way to get the correct one is to quote the Registration District and number. ie. for my great aunt "Births Dec 1907 Saunders Jane Louie Greenwich 1d 946." She was actually born in a street in Deptford.
Charles' occupation is Book Binder Finisher. I agree with Carolyn about the other occupation.
Yours
Victoria
Aug 25, 2009
Brenda Wordsworth
Kathleen,
If you go to http://www.parishregister.com/ , a very usefiul and interesting site, and look at the maps in the shop you will find the Ecclesiastical Map-County of London 1903 which is a good investment if you have London ancestors http://www.parishregister.com/product/ecclesiastical-map-county-of-...
I would record the City of London as London and the rest of the greater London area as London followed by County (Middlesex, Kent, Surrey) 1899.
Cheers,
Brenda
Nov 21, 2015