It would appear that in fact Pat Noble and I match on 25 of 25 markers!! Wow! Maybe all hope is not lost in finding those elusive Irish ancestors!

This is great! If we're persistent, I think we'll start making more of these connections and find where our genes (and ancestors) crossed. Cavan, Fermanagh, Monaghan and even Longford counties are not that big an area -- our families were obviously all related and not far apart.

Terry steered me in this direction, and I'm glad he did. Thank you for letting me join. Terry and I have years invested in trying to trace our family before 1800. I'm glad to be included in the group.

I have now ordered the next set of DNA tests - the Y 25-37 one. Pat Noble has results for 37 markers and since we match on 25 of 25, it would be even better if we could match on 37 of 37!!

According to FamilyTree DNA, my results for the Y-Refine25to37(Y-DNA26-37 Markers) are expected on 03/03/2010 - so we will have to wait until then to see if Pat and I match any further!

Terry, I posted my results to Y-Share at your suggestion. Thanks.

I have account VVH2T (two vees, not a W) at Family Tree DNA's YSearch site. If you're unfamiliar with the site and have DNA results from someplace other than Family Tree DNA, you might want to visit www.ysearch.org and establish an account.

My Ancestry.com test only has 30 markers in common with John's test, even though we both have paid for 37 marker tests. FTDNA and Ancestry test different things, I guess. My cynical side says it is a money making scheme, but I digress.

I was finally able to conduct test comparisons at Ysearch, but only after John gave me some pointers and a little prodding. Here is what I found:

I have a genetic distance of 1 based on 25 markers with Bruce Noble (KT95P). Bruce traces his lineage back to an Andrew Noble born circa 1800 in County Tyrone.

I have a genetic distance of 2 based on 30 markers with three users:

Michael Noble (D64QD) traces his lineage back to a Robert Noble born 1783 in Corhanagh, County Cavan.

Terry Noble (NRZ7T) traces his lineage back to a Henry Noble born circa 1798 and died 1836. No geographic info provided.

John Noble (AD93A) traces his lineage back to a John Noble born in 1817 in Maguiresbridge, County Fermanagh. He died in 1861.

I presume that Mike, Terry, and John are those who are members of this group. Is Bruce in this group as well? If not, I've written him and will try to encourage him to do so.

BTW, I have a DNA group at Ancestry if anyone wants to join it. It is called Noble R1b in Ireland. There's no point in maintaining discussions in both places, so I'll chat here, but you might want to add your name to the site and initiate an alert just in case someone comes along and posts to that group and not here.

My Andrew Noble was on Fort Hill ST in Enniskillen in the 1862 Griffith's Valuation, as was Robert Noble, presumably his son born about 1852.

According to Ancestry, there were also listings for Andrew Noble's in an index to Griffith's Valuation (1848-1864) in Fermanagh, Aghalurcher, Derryloman; in Cavan, Urney, Tullyymongan Lower; and in Fermanagh, Magheraculmoney, Slievebane. Does anyone here have the details of these index hits?

The Ireland Tithe Applotment Books (1824-1837) show an Andrew Noble in 1835 in Fermanagh, Derryvullan, Tamlaght.

Ancestry says this about the tithe applotment source:

Source Information:
Heritage World and the Genealogical Publishing Company. Ireland, Tithe Applotment Books, 1824-1837 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network, Inc., 2008. Original data: Tithe applotment books for Northern Ireland, 1823-1828. National Archives, Dublin and Public Record Office of Northern Ireland.

Description:
The Tithe Applotment Books record the results of a unique land survey taken to determine the amount of tax payable by landholders to the Church of Ireland, the established church until 1869. They are known as the Tithe Applotment Books because the results of this land survey were originally compiled in nearly 2,000 hand-written books. This data set represents a virtual census for pre-Famine Ireland. Since it covers all of Ireland it is immensely important in terms of constructing, not just an image of a particular family line, but of wider social conditions in the country.

The Tithe Applotment Books are not comprehensive and some parts of the country were not surveyed. It should not be assumed that these 'exceptions' from the tithe survey were due to parishes being overlooked since there are usually explanations as to why they were tithe-free. In some cases there are no tithe books because a certain parish did not exist, or was part of another parish, at the time of the survey. There were also some parishes outside parochial jurisdiction, such as the above-mentioned granges, while glebe lands and all towns were also exempt. Details of exceptions are provided below:

* County Antrim Parishes

o Glynn: names of landowners only

o Glenwhirry: no agricultural land worth assessing

o Granges of Ballyscullion, Doagh, Inispollan, Layd, Muckamore: all tithe-free

o Grange of Drumtullagh: tithe entries in applotment book for Derrykeighan parish

o Grange of Nilteen: originally included in applotment book for Donegore parish

o Shankill: tithe applotment entries entered in Belfast parish

* County Armagh Parishes

o Armagh: names of leaseholders for five townlands only

o Kilclooney [Kilcluney]: tithe entries in applotment book for Mullaghbrack parish

o Kildarton: formed 1840; tithe entries in Armagh, Lisnadill, Loughgall and Mullaghbrack

* County Derry Parishes

o Agivey: described as 'extra-parochial'

o Carrick: formed 1846; tithe entries in Balteagh, Bovevagh and Tamlaght Finlagan parishes

o Formoyle [Fermoyle]: formed 1843; tithe entries in Dunboe parish

o Learmount: formed 1831; tithe entries in Banagher, Cumber Upper and Cumber Lower

o Templemore: tithe entries to be found in Deanery of Derry

* County Down Parishes

o Castleboy: tithe-free

o Holywood: former site of priory, and records show that no tithes were ever taken here

o Killaney: no tithe applotment book exists

o Newry: no tithe applotment book exists

o Warrenpoint: formed 1825; tithe entries found in applotment book for Clonallen parish

* County Fermanagh Parishes

o Devenish: tithe survey (1824) gives only townland names and a few large landowners.

o Clones and Currin: tithe entries in County Monaghan

o Kinawley and Tomregan: tithe entries in County Cavan

o Templecarn: tithe entries in County Donegal

* County Tyrone Parishes

o Donaghedy [Donagheady]: no tithe applotment book exists

o Errigal Trough: tithe entries in County Monaghan

o Urney: tithe entries in County Donegal

I've updated my data at Ysearch with John's help. I thought the markers were in numeric order and ended up missing 7 of them: 441, 444, 445, 446, 452, 461, and 462. Mea culpa.

With the new data added, John and I are still genetic distance 2 with 30 markers compared, but the other two with genetic distance 2 (Michael, Terry) have 32 markers to compare with me. The one with genetic distance 1 with 25 markers (Bruce) remains unchanged.

Pat still has to put in values for markers 438 and 442 -- when he does that we will be okay with 438 (all at 12) - however marker 442 for Pat is 17 and we are at 12.. that means that he and I will now be a genetic distance of 7 ( I won't be able to pull that up on ysearch as it maxes at 6)! Mike and Terry will be a genetic distance of 6.

Forgot.. Mike and Terry - we are still a genetic distance of 4!

Pat has now all his marker values in ysearch --- use this criteria to see the results -

on at least 8 markers, allowing a genetic distance of 1 per marker matched above 20.
Showing matches with last name Noble.

The DNA markers are interesting input to the search, but they won't identify specific ancestors. We still have to backtrack step by step to identify each ancestor and try to establish where our lines do cross. It is certainly helpful to know that our families are related, but my current stumbling block is trying to find who were Robert's parents and where were they from, and the numbers just don't tell me that (unless I'm missing something).

It is even more curious, to me, to know that Terry and I match on all 67 markers, yet my ancestor emigrated from Ireland in the mid-1840's, stopping in Illinois and ending up in Missouri, while his went to North Carolina in the mid-1700's and ended up in Illinois. Grandparents, uncles or cousins? Undoubtedly, but we haven't been able to identify the link yet.

Michael.. I agree this DNA just adds a little interest to all our searching, but unfortunately it does not provide actual names! The old brickwalls are still there! However, when one matches with another like you and Terry, it might give a common thread at some point in time! Oh well, it keeps us interested!!

By the way, I have invited Bruce to join us -- and also asked him to upload the rest of his markers beyond 25 on ysearch!

Has anyone used Olive Tree Genealogy -- do they have more or different info than Ancestry? I'm looking for ships passenger lists 1840-1845 but they didn't have much for that period.

I have used Olive Tree occasionally, but found it did not have much of what I was looking for!

I've not used Olive Tree.

Here is another project group in FamilyTreeDna that I am a part of -- geared to any ancestors from Ulsters - I have asked the adminstrator to set up a Noble section in the results page!
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?code=T40804&Group...

I have decided to go ahead and get the rest of my DNa tested - the y37-Y67 refine. The sample will probably go into tomorrow's batch (Feb17) and if it is was like the last one, it only took about 3 weeks, even though they had said about 6!! I am curious to see if Mike and Terry and I stay at the same genetic distance of 4!! I have asked Bruce to upload the balance of his to Ysearch but have not had a reply from him as yet - although he did join genealogywise yesterday but not this group as yet!

Hello fellow Nobles. I am Andrew Noble, living in UK. I am the great grandson of a Thomas Noble from Lisbellow, Co. Fermanagh and reasonably familiar with the area around Enniskillen and Maguiresbridge. There are a handful of direct relatives living in the area, who can trace their ancestors back to a William Noble of Arda, Maguiresbridge (1814-1895). William I believe was married to Ann. They are buried at Old Derryvullan graveyard (with a Jane Graham, possibly sister of William). Unfortunately I have failed to go back further, owing to loss of records in Dublin riots in 1922 and lack of time to search locally. Would be interested to hear of anyone who has an interest in this William Noble.

Welcome aboard Andrew!! Hopefully we can help each other finding those elusive ancestors!

Andrew -- have you had any DNA testing done? If so, you could enter your results at ysearch.org, which is part of FamilyTreeDNA.

Welcome, Andrew. I found a record of an Andrew from Derryvullan from the early 19th century. I believe I posted it here the other day.

Do you get the sense that the Fermanagh area could have supported a number of unrelated Noble lines in the early 19th century?

Well my 37-67 DNA order went into this week's batch and the projected date for the results is April 5th, but I am hoping it will be like the previous one and be sooner!

My husband is a Thomas Noble descendent who settled in Westfield, Massachusetts. -- 1668. I'm hoping to locate his descendants that remained in Massachusetts, starting with Matthew Noble and working down through Ruth Noble, who married Charles Boardman. Do you know anything about them?

Welcome Christy!!

Well my 67marker results came in yesterday. Michael, Terry, and I now have a genetic distance of 6 - but it still means that somewhere back in time we had a common ancestor! I have tried to contact Bruce Noble to upload his 26-67 markers up to Y-Search, since we had all matched 24 of 25. He did join GenealogyWise but not this group and he has never responded to my request to upload the balance of his marker values! Anyway that is how it unfolded to date!

According to FamilyTree DNA - the following table shows the probabilities that we had a common ancestor (Michael, Terry and I)

Generations Percentage
4 3.52%
8 30.41%
12 65.65%
16 87.25%
20 96.13%
24 98.98%

All signs seem to point to a common ancestor(s) for John, Terry, Bruce, Terry, Pat, perhaps Andrew and also George Helfrick (Noble) in Fermanagh. I joined the Ulster Historical Foundation because they have a lot of records for the counties that make up Ulster. Went to their seminar last weekend in Lancaster, PA, and learned that not all records were lost in 1922 -- lots of local records are still available but not online. Think I'll commission them to do some noble research on the Fermanagh Nobles and see what we can come up with. Stay tuned.

Sorry, meant to include me on the list as well.

Michael, that sounds wonderful. Hope the Lancaster thing works. Terry

Mike -- Let me know if I can pitch in on the "commissioning". It would be grand if they found a family Bible or two, or a vein of church records for a cluster of Nobles. It would also be interesting to find out if there was a strong migration pattern from nearby inland counties into Fermanagh. Maybe our ancestors were kicked off their lands slightly south of Fermanagh and were only in that county for under a hundred years?

Christy, Welcome! My Noble ancestors got off the boat in the US much, much more recently than your husband's, so I haven't dug around in Noble genealogy in the US too much. I've chased other lines to take advantage of my Ancestry membership, but not the Noble line too much. Are you going to be getting one of your Noble male relatives' DNA tested? There's a number of Nobles in the system already. The others in this group can probably tell you more if you're interested.

Welcome Christy....The Massachusetts line of Nobles is probably the best documented. Check out the book History and Genealogy of the Family of Thomas Noble, of Westfield ... By Lucius Manlius Boltwood. For more information on this book and the Thomas Noble line, also check the ancestry.com Message Boards: Surnames: Noble.

Mike - like Pat, I might be able to help out in some way for any "commissioning". I would suspect that, they may only research only one individual's line - might be interesting to see what they propose! By the way Brian Mitchell has 2 books out - you can get them through Amazon - I have one already and I have one on order. In each the name Noble is mentioned! The second one is supposed to give more details. It appears from the first that Major Arthur Noble who fought in the Battle of Derry in 1689, was born in Ireland in 1654 - but his line came from Cornwall in England!! Although I can't prove it, we may all descend from this man!

Anyway the books are: "Defenders of the Plantation of Ulster, 1641-1691" and "The Surnames of North West Ireland:Concise Histories of the Major Surnames of Gaelic and Planter Origin"

Thanks for the offers to help on the 'commissioning', but I plan to start with just a preliminary assessment. This is £25 and is used "...to consider the feasibility of research and it should not be viewed as a genealogical report in its own right. The degree to which research is successful is determined by the extent of available records." If this comes back positive, I may go further. Would like to establish a link from my know Irish ancestors in Cavan to the Nobles in Fermanagh -- if that yields any positive information, we (this group) may be able to identify matches and establish our common ancestor(s). I'll share with you whatever info I come up with. This may take 4-6 weeks, so don't look for anything mid-May at the earliest.

John, thanks for the book references -- I'll see if my local library or LDS-FHC has copies.

Mike -- those books were just published in Nov and Dec 2009 - may not be in any libraries yet!

I've had a recent contact with a second cousin who lives in Northern NJ, not far from where I am. She is the granddaughter of Michael and Isabel (Noble) Gordon, Isabel being my grandfather Robert J Noble's sister. This cousin's father was named Robert Noble Gordon.

Pardon the aside, but for those looking for their Fenian roots, Michael Gordon's father was the infamous P J Gordon, who was quite active in the Land Society in late 19th century Claremorris and arrested with Parnell's boys in 1880.

P J Gordon is quoted in a speech on 26 Sep 1880 at Clonbur, County Galway, where an assassination had taken place the day before: "In this agitation I have taken a most active part . . . I am not here as a Land Leaguer but an Irish nationalist; and if the Land League does not go far enough for the tenant farmers, and if you are prepared to take a better stand - to take the field -- I am prepared to take the sword with you."
Source: Land and Popular Politics in Ireland: County Mayo From the Plantation to the Land War, by Donald E Jordan, Jr, 1994, pg 279

This radical activity in the family might be why my Robert Noble acted like he was hiding from someone for most of his life in the US. He lied about his birthplace (Ocean Port, NJ instead of Enniskillen) on his kids' birth certificates and on two US censuses. He sent the kids on a mystery trip to visit the relatives in June 1930. Anyway, I'm hoping to visit this long lost cousin very soon.

The following was posted on the Noble Family Genealogy Forum (http://genforum.genealogy.com/noble/) by Donna Causey:

I thought I'd mention to Noble/Nobles family researchers there are FREE genealogy records available on the website www.alabamapioneers.com.

Many settlers traveled to Alabama during the early "1800's" due to the opening of the Alabama territory. They often married in Alabama, had lots of children and traveled farther west around 1837 and the Civil War. You can also find the website by searching for the word alabamapioneers.com on Google

When you reach the site, Just type the name in the search box and remember to use various phonetic spellings since there were few schools and census workers often spelled phonetically. To lower the number of searches, type the name again, in any 2nd search box and be sure to check the box exact phrase only.

A friend of mine, Ken Blue, just joined this group. His Noble ancestors were about 5 miles down the road in Co. Longford from where my ancestors lived in Co. Cavan -- surely related, but we can't identify the connection. Yesterday, we plotted a "Migration Trail" for Nobles in Ireland, using locations that have been identified from marriage, birth and other records (not necessarily our known family members). Starting with Co. Derry and coming down through Co. Tyrone, then Enniskillen, Maguiresbridge, and several other locations in Co. Fermanagh, then to Corhanagh in Co. Cavan (my group) and Cornadrung in Co. Longford (Ken's group), you will see a fairly straight, narrow swath of Noble settlements with little deviation. This is fascinating to see how the clan members migrated southward in Ireland and makes you think that most of them were most definitely related. When we've finished this experiment and have a presentable graphic, we'll post it here for you to see.

Hey Mike and Ken -- this looks really interesting --look forward to seeing the final graphics!

I did further testing at FamilyTree DNA on the Deep Clade testing and my haplogroup is now confirmed as R1b1b2a1b and the sub-clade as R-P312 .. on the Y-Search org, there is now a Scott Noble who is in the same haplogroup but is a genetic distance of 10.. we have exchanged one email so far but since I am holidays and won't be back home till Thursday, I will have to wait to converse more - I will invite him to join this group!

Hi, thx John for inviting me. My name is Scott Noble and the oldest direct ancestor is a John Noble, my great grandfather, born May 7 1850 in Belfast, son of William Noble. Both worked in the Linen Mills of Belfast. John immigrated with his family in 1873 to Canada and came to Toronto, Ontario where his descendants have been every since. I did a quick comparison of the Nobles on Ysearch and the closest is a Michael Noble, D64QD, with a distance of 7 over 67 STRs. Is the Michael on this list the same? If so I would be very interested in seeing how we might be connected.

There is also Bruce Noble, KT95P, with a distance of 4 over 25 STRs, but I don't think he is on this list.

Looking forward to sharing what ever I can

Hi Scott..

Yes that Michael is the one on this group! Bruce actually had his 67 markers done but for some reason has never updated them on YSearch and I have asked him to join this group but so far he has not accepted the invitation -- although he is on genealogy wise!

Thx John, I will try and contact Bruce directly through Ysearch.

Welcome Scott -- My gedcom file is posted on ancestry.com as Robert-Isabella Noble Family. Not much info on the Ireland end -- most of us on this board are related to some degree but we haven't yet found our common ancestor(s). We love to compare notes in hopes that something will turn up. If you're not on ancestry.com, let me know and I'll send you a copy of the gedcom file or a text file.

Thx Michael, I am not on ancestry.com so either a gedcom or text file would be fine. From the matches on FTDNA yourself and two others, Bruce and Terry, are all at a distance of 7 within 67. Haven't checked to see which STRs are involved yet.

Is it your general believe that we came from the border area of Scotland & England during the plantation?

 Hello to all, I (Dave Gerard in New York, USA) am new to your site.

My mother's father was JAMES PATERSON NOBLE (B.1906 Glasgow,Scotland) son of

 

Robert J. Noble (b. 1860) and Janet Paterson, both of Scotland) son of

 

William Noble (b. apx 1822, Fermanagh, Ireland) m. 1850 in Scotland to Sarah Strain (b.Tyrone, Ireland) son of

 

John Noble (b. Fermanagh, Ireland) married to Rose Noble (b. apx. 1800, Fermanagh, Ireland) the daughter of yet another John Noble and Helen Monahan.

 

I had hit a dead end years ago, and only recently thru Scotlands People was I able to search and obtain assorted BC /MC/ DC and Census documents. William also had brothers John (b. apx 1824) & Henry (b. apx 1829) also from County Fermanagh, Ireland.... each left Ireland, settled and married in Scotland.

 

I have again hit a dead end..... this time in the north of Ireland.  there must be records somewhere of the marriage of  John Noble & Rose Noble and the births of their children ..........

 

by coincidence my mother's mother was Margaret Brady from County Cavan, Ireland right next to Fermanagh.

 

Hopefully I'll find a church project, someone in my father's mother's family (Cross in the UK) was involved in a church project in England and was able to take parts of her line back to the early 1600's.

 

I am also searching my father's scot line, Cameron from the Aberdeen area.

 

Thats enough for now ....primary search line here for me is NOBLE in Ireland.... any help would be greatly appreciated.  

 

Thank you for your time and assistance.

 

Dave

Hi David, I am curious about your William Noble born approx 1822 married around 1850 s/o John Noble.

I have traced back to a John Noble born c 1795 father of a William born 1819 who married around 1850 and had a son John born I believe May 7 1850.  William's wife died and he remarried to Elizabeth Brownlee March 16 1866.

Would this be the same family?????

Scott