Winterbourne Valley - KNIGHT, BUTT, ARNOLD, ELLIS, VINCENT, DURNFORD, MALTON

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by susan buchanan on March 26, 2010 at 5:29am

Hello Elizabeth, My name is Susan Buchanan and i am a 4xgreat granddaughter of John and Jane Butt. I have traced my Butt ancestors back a further 5 generations to Robert Butt (born1570).My lineage is:Mollie Butt(mother), Jeffrey Butt grandfather, 1xggrandfather John William,2xggrandfather James,3xggrandfather George,4xggrandfather John,5xggrandfather John,6xggrandfather William,7xggrandfather William,8xggrandfather Thomas,9xggrandfather Robert. We have a very large family here in Australia. I would love to go back further! Nice to meet a relative! Cheers Susan.

Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Kipp nee Blake on March 26, 2010 at 5:46am

Hi Susan. We are fifth cousins. My family is relatively small here in Canada although growing slowly!

I have the traceback to Robert Butt and Susan Gantrell as well.

My line goes back through my father Ernest Edward George Blake, his father Samuel George Blake, his mother Maria Jane Knight, her mother Louisa Butt, her father Charles Butt (eldest brother of George and Charles stayed in England), then John Butt, and the same as you have above.

My father was born in England and he and his parents came to Canada in 1913 when he was nine years old. He was an only child. Maria Jane Knight (although from a large birth family, Samuel Knight and Louisa Butt had eleven children but only four survived to adulthood). Maria Jane was the eldest and Edward Blake and Maria Jane Knight had 12 children but a number of them did not have any children.

The Butt family is enormous here in Canada but principally descendants of Joseph (also brother to George your 3x great grandfather). He and his first wife emigrated to Canada in 1840 and she died in childbirth in 1841. He married a second time and from the two marriages there were nineteen children. Pretty well all of the Butt families from Ontario to British Columbia (and they number in the thousands (I think!)) are descendants of Joseph (baptized 11 Aug 1805).

I am still working on the genealogy of the wives of Charles Butt (Hannah Arnold) and Joseph Butt (1 st wife Sarah Arnold). I think they were sisters but still have to find the baptism of Sarah. Hannah Arnold's parents were William Arnold and Elizabeth Malton (married 30 Aug 1793 at Milton Abbas).

Always nice to meet another relative. I do have an enormous family for you in Australia from a correspondent in England.

Regards, Elizabeth

Permalink Reply by susan buchanan on March 26, 2010 at 5:57am

Hello Elizabeth, Thank you for your reply. I will keep in touch. Susan.

Permalink Reply by Anthony John Damon on May 11, 2010 at 12:12pm

Hi Elizabeth

I have just joined the group and would like to discuss the mysterious Sarah Arnold you mentioned. I have been trying to trace he for some time.

My interest is through my grandmother whose maiden name was Edith Rose Arnold (b 1883).
Her father was William James Arnold (b 1849).
Her grandfather was Mark Arnold (b 1821).

Mark my 2x ggrandfather was bp in Winterborne Clenstone on 15 July 1821 with son of Sarah Arnold. No father mentioned.
1841 census. Mark is living with William no relationship given.
1851 census. William age 85 is living with Mark and his family. William is entered as Mark's father.

That causes the confusion:-

1. William Arnold had a son Mark bp in Winterborne Whitechurch on 25 March 1798. ( it was the practice to rename children on the death of one of the siblings, unfortunately I am still trying to trace the first Mark's life).

2. Elizabeth Arnold (Malton) died in 1838. Mark was born in1821.

3.Hannah Arnold was bp in Winterborne Whitchurch on 18 January 1795 daughter of William and Elizabeth Arnold. (No problem with that).

4.I have failed to trace Sarah Arnold, I now suspect that she may be the child of one of William's two brother's, they were all born between 1752 &1770 but records are difficult to trace and I may have missed a son.

5. My conclusion at the moment is that William Arnold was her uncle and he and Elizabeth agreed to bring Mark up.

I would appreciate any comments or new facts.

Regards Tony

Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Kipp nee Blake on May 11, 2010 at 3:01pm

Some of this information is from another researcher and I have not verified it myself with original records. Children of John Arnold and Hannah Norris married 5 Jul 1751 at Milton Abbas:

Mary Arnold bc 1752 and married to Stephen Elford 27 Apr 1780 at Milton Abbas
John bc 1754
Jane bc 1756
Joseph bc 1759 (below)
Hannah bc 1762 and married to John Hooper 21 Mar 1791 Milton Abbas
Susannah bc 1765
William Arnold (my ancestor) baptized 21 Feb 1770 Milton Abbas (bc 1766) and married to Elizabeth Malton 30 Aug 1793 at Milton Abbas
Ann Arnold bc 1773 and married to James Vacher 26 Jul 1796 at Milton Abbas.

I have Joseph Arnold (born c 1759 Milton Abbas and son of John Arnold and Hannah Norris) married to Susanna Best 18 Jul 1781 Milton Abbas with children John bc 1782, Mary bc 1784, Henry bc 1787, Jane and Kitty bc 1798, Maria bc 1800.

I only have children for John (bc 1782) and married to Sarah Sturmy 12 Apr 1802 Milton Abbas, Harriet bc 1803, Isbella bc 1804, John bc 1806, Henry bc 1809, Elias Arnold bc 1814, Ann bc 1816.

John bc 1806 married Maria Barnes and they are the parents of Elias Arnold bc 1837. I have not chased this information down myself but have it from another researcher.

This is a large family with John Arnold married to Hannah Norris having siblings Jamesbc 1726, Jane bc 1728, Mary bc 1730, William bc 1732 and Thomas bc 1737.

I haven't been able to find any information on Elizabeth Malton which has always been my brickwall.

I had always planned to do a research trip to Dorchester Record Office but I have since managed to acquire most of the records that I want so haven't done that to date. We live in Canada so a special trip to do all of that.

The naming of children in the Butt family (Charles Butt and Hannah Arnold mirrors sme of the names of her siblings which I always found to be most interesting). She did not name a child Sarah nor did her daughter Louisa (my 2x gg). Since Louisa was having children not long after Sarah died in Canada I think that this might indicate you are correct that she was not a daughter of William Arnold and Elizabeth Malton. Mark could have been their son and I have him as their son actually. I have not traced Thrysa, Jane or Ann (sisters to Hannah so do not know if they married or survived to adulthood). Mark stayed at Winterborne Clenstone throughout the 1800s and I found it interesting that he named his children William and Eliza/Elizabeth and as you mention has William as his father in the 1851 census but they do appear to have raised him.

There is a possibility that the Sarah Arnold listed as his mother was widowed as the priest tended only to mention the mother's name when the father had died prior to the birth. I assume that is your thought with checking the brothers of William.

Sarah Arnold married Joseph Butt 7 Jun 1824 at Winterborne Clenstone. I have a possible birth date of 1806 for her. She did not use the family names like Hannah did which I always found to be interesting. There isn't a family lore about the Butt family here in Canada being "double cousins" but my line didn't come to Canada until 1913 where Joseph and Sarah Butt came in 1840.

Good luck with your research.

Regards Elizabeth Kipp

Permalink Reply by Anthony John Damon on May 12, 2010 at 1:14pm

Elizabeth, thankyou for your prompt reply.

Your list of seven children of John Arnold and Hannah Norris align exactly with mine. I did not have a list of John Arnold's siblings thankyou for that.

With regard to Sarah Arnold I had not considered that she may have been a widow. Therefore we are looking for somebody whose surname (her maiden name we do not know). That would account for my failure.

You say you have a possible birth date of 1806 for Sarah. If that is correct she would have been 13/14 when my 2x GGrandfather was born. I feel now she is not the Sarah I am seeking. I have a new possibility, one of William Arnold's siblings was also Mark as I pointed out in my comments yesterday. He was bp on 25 March 1798 and therefore would have been 23 when my ancestor was born.

After I had written yesterdays comments, I was trawling Ancestry and found a Sarah Arnold (b1791 d1873) in the registration district of Blandford. She died a spinster. A new lead perhaps.

Thankyou and regards Tony Damon.

Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Kipp nee Blake on May 12, 2010 at 3:31pm

Yes, I have not been able to discover anything about Mark bp 25 Mar 1798. He does not appear to marry and did not die after 1837. I keep meaning to check the Peninsular Wars as he would have been old enough to have joined towards the end.

The mystery remains though: who are the parents of Sarah Arnold married to Joseph Butt? She isn't baptized at Winterborne Whitchurch or Winterborne Clenstone with the other children of William Arnold and Elizabeth Malton. By birth order she would have been baptized at Winterborne Clenstone. It would also appear that William Arnold and Elizabeth Malton had two children before they married in 1793 although I wonder if that is a transcription error and they actually married in 1791. Thyrsa was baptied 25 Jan 1791 and Abel was baptized 11 Mar 1792 both at Winterborne Whitchurch. The priest records them as a couple though.

My father did not know his fourth cousins (children of Joseph Butt and Sarah Arnold) who lied at Goderich only 50 miles from us. It is one of my arguments against Sarah being a sister of Hannah actually - double cousins might have still been in contact since my father moved to Canada with his parents as a child.

My father visited his great grandfather at Turnworth every summer as a child with his parents and Charles Butt (my grandfather's great grandfather) was known to my grandfather and he attended his 85th birthday party when he was 10 years old so remembered him quite well. However, by hs time Charles Butt's brothers had left for Canada and Australia.

It has always been a real mystery although Sarah died in childbirth not long after they arrived in Canada and this could have created a "barrier" between the families although such things usually get passed on.

It continues to be a mystery. I have been in contact with my Butt cousins and they knew of us so quite a mystery.

I wonder who this new Sarah is? The Arnold family is very large at Milton Abbas and I have not really cracked the surface there yet. Milton Abbas is such a lovely village. We drove through two years ago on our way to the Winterbourne villages and Turnworth.

Sarah Arnold and Joeph Butt had 11 children (the last one died with Sarah). She married fairly young at about 18 and could have had a child at 14 or 15 years of age. It is the calling of Mark the son of William in the 1851 census that has always made me wonder if Sarah was his mother.

Good luck with your research. Elizabeth Kipp

Permalink Reply by Anthony John Damon on May 13, 2010 at 1:51pm

Thankyou for your comments it has been very useful to share my thoughts with you. Will go away now but will be back if I find anything of interest.

Regards Tony Damon.