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Douglas surname DNA
My brother got his DNA tested and a distant cousin did also and they both matched. The surname is Douglas. They also matched perfectly with several Gordons. So I would like to find out where and when the change took place. And any other information I can find out.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Debbie Kennett on
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Can you tell us how many markers you were tested on? It is still possible to have matches with different surnames even at 37 markers but these will not necessarily be of any genealogical significance and just mean that you share a common ancestor with the person with the different surname from the time before surnames were adopted.
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Permalink Reply by Scott Norton on
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This significance of markers is resolution. With 12 markers you will probably match 12/12 with many people.
But with 37 markers and a 37/37 match you should pay attention when you have a match even with a different surname. For my own Norton DNA we only matched our direct line and the Nordin family at 37 markers. We looked into it and discovered we were in fact Norden's and our ancestor had changed his name in 1750.
Sometimes we find adoptions. On one family we had one whole branch who had a different DNA signature from the main line and they matched Johnson. We took a close look and discovered a wife had taken in her brothers boy because his mother had died and raised him as her own. So his children had a different DNA for the surname.
A 37/37 match is a great clue to your background. I would first check the other surname pedigree to see if they lived close to or associated with your family line. And your extended family line.
Scott -
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Permalink Reply by Jane Miscavich on
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We tested 37 markers on my brother's DNA and matched perfectly with two Gordons. I knew of another Douglas through my paper records and asked if he would submit his DNA. He had 67 markers tested. (Our common ancestor dates back to 1731.) He matched me 35/37 but matched a couple of other Gordons than the ones I matched -- he matched perfectly. I am aware of a Gordon whose family hails from Maine (as does my Douglas line) and checked with him but his DNA does not match. We have pretty much concluded that we are descended from the Jock and Tam Gordons from the late 13th century (see TheGordonDNAProject.com). And we have pretty much concluded that our common ancestor will be found overseas. I think that our DNA is really Gordon rather than Douglas. But with such close matches, it would seem it can't be too long ago. I'm expecting something took place like your paragraph below about adoption. Just would like to know for sure. Thanks for your replies. Every bit of information helps.
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Jane, a quick look turned up this study which pretty much sums up your dilema. I suspected a clan relationship and turned up this.
Study of One Haplotype Cluster of Haplogroup I1a in Scotland and Northumberland
"Evidence to support a Northumberland origin for this cluster is provided by close matches with the HULL surname and Clans GORDON, DOUGLAS and HAMILTON."
The origin for this haplotype cluster might even be Archill, the son of Egfrith (other spellings are Arkil/Arkyle/Archil, the son of Aykfrith). Archill was a Northumberland noble or lord who is recorded as living near York in Southern Northumberland. He fled to Scotland in 1070 to escape William the Conqueror and found refuge at the court of Malcolm Canmore (Malcolm III) whose son (also named Malcolm) is the recognized progenitor of Clan Donnachaidh. Archill is belived to be the progenitor of Clan MacFarlane. Gilchrist, the great-great-grandson of Archill, is also believed to have possessed lands around Loch Tay. See http://www.kintyremag.co.uk/2000/43/page2.html, http://www.amcray.net/hgm/LUSS1.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~libpjr1/clandna.html
So the question is, "Do the Gordon's you match relate to the Scotland Gordons of North Umberland?
Gordon and Douglas are such prominent families, not to mention noble, you should find a huge base to correlate. The match with Gordon could be a very long time ago.
If you got your DNA test from Family Tree, could you tell me the test number and I will take a look at the study.
Scott -
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You mentioned Nothumbeland and the Gordon Project place me with Jock and Tam Godon of Ruthven. I noticed that Northumbria and Ruthven are very close to each other. Our haplotype is I1
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Permalink Reply by William Douglas on
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Umm!
The difficulty here is that this is too far back in history.
The links appear to be more recent as the people testing seem to have common ancestors during the period when surnames were in common use. The thinking is that there was either an illigitimate birth, or a name change, perhaps to secure an inheritance. -
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Can you give me your Douglas DNA test number for reference?
Scott -
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Absolutely. My Kit #is 14070, ID is J5tva and John Goodwin (who has 67 markers) is # 29243.
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I'm not sure how to leave a family tree but will try this.
James Douglas
married Margaret Elliot in 1731 in York, Maine. They had nine children.
-----> James (1733) my ancestor and
-----> William (1757),
-----> John Goodwin Douglas (on this site), his ancestor.
-----> -----> James son, Andrew(1778) married William's daughter, Eunice(1781), and they had 8 children.
-----> -----> -----> Thomas(1814) (my ancestor) had 8 children.
-----> -----> -----> -----> William(1852) (my ancestor) had 5 children. the youngest
-----> -----> -----> -----> -----> Abraham William Douglas, was my grandfather born 1884. -
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This is an interesting story. The Gordons and the Douglas were great enemies and almost always on different sides.
"The king gave the Earl of Atholl's confiscated lands of Strathbogie to Clan Gordon. The castle there became known as Huntly, a reminder of the Gordons’ Berwickshire lands. Sir Alexander Gordon was created Earl of Huntly in 1449. At this time the king was at enmity with the powerful Clan Douglas. The Gordons stood on the king’s side, and with their men involved in the south of the country. The Earl of Moray was a relation and ally of the Douglases. He and the Douglases took the opportunity to sack the Gordon lands, setting Huntly Castle ablaze. However the Gordons returned and quickly destroyed their enemies. Although the castle was burned to the ground, a grander castle was built in its place."
Some of the clues we have are the DNA haplogroups. It appears that main Douglas clan is R haplogroup. However your Douglas is I1a. The Gordon's are mainly I1a and have quite a few matches with your Douglas.
There is certainly a connection. But how and how old?
Your Douglas came to York, Me very early. It was at a time when the Douglas power was waning, but few were leaving for better fortunes. I have found that many emigrants from this era are noble. More so than commoners. Nobles had the means to set up in a new land. After 1800, the Douglas family just abandoned Scotland for anywhere else.
So your Douglas line set out early. This was also a tough period to grow up in York, ME The French and Indian wars were catastrophic. this also says something about your line.
My impression is that there is a very early connection with Gordon and in Scotland. Which is just what you suggested. The Gordon line that is associated with the lowlands where the Douglas lands were, while showing a relation is not your line. It's the main line of Gordons.
Scott -
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This is all very interesting! Thank you. I'm going to pass this on to my other cousins. I know they'll find this interesting.
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The Gordons and the Douglases lived cheek by jowel in both Aberdeenshire and in Kirkcudbrightshire. It would be helpful if those seeking to find a common Gordon/Douglas ancestor could indicate where they think their families came from.
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